The Full Stop - Berenice

Berenice Howard Smith is an artist, self employed designer and creative. She's also co-founder of The Full Stop, an award-winning podcast and online community for people who are childless not by choice.  She's not a parent.

Berenice's Design Business Hello Lovely:
https://hellolovely.design/
The Full Stop: Podcast and COmmunity founded by THREE NAMES
https://www.thefullstoppod.com/

Further info and background to our conversation
Bourne Hall: IVF clinic in the UK founded in 1980
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourn_Hall_Clinic
Fertility Matters
https://fertilitymattersatwork.com/
Gateway Women
https://gateway-women.com/
World Childless Week
https://worldchildlessweek.net/
Bibi Lynch's talk at Fertility Fest about being tired
https://bibilynch.com/blog/fertility-fest/
Citizens - John Alexander
https://www.jonalexander.net/
JD Vance's comments about Childless Cat Ladies https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c147yn4xxx4o

Transcript

It's a bit More Complicated Than That: Berenice

Berenice: [00:00:00]

It's never a straightforward answer.You could ask me tomorrow and it would be a completely different answer, I should think. But generally speaking, I've settled on more, not less.

Rebecca: Hello, and welcome to It's a Bit More Complicated Than That, where we are listening to all the fascinating, sad, joyful, messy answers that follow the question, So, do you have kids?

I'm Rebecca.

Dannie-Lu: I'm Dannie-Lu,

Rebecca: I'm a parent.

Dannie-Lu: and I'm not. But it's a bit more complicated than that. And that's the same for pretty much every one of our guests. 

Rebecca: Every episode, we ask one guest whether they're a parent or not, whether it's a bit more complicated than that, and a few other questions about their journey. we see where it goes.

Dannie-Lu: And to finish, we give them a magic wand and ask if there's anything they'd change about society if they could.

Rebecca: In this episode, we meet Berenice, an artist, self employed designer and creative. She's also co founder of The Full Stop, an award winning podcast and community for people who are childless, not by choice. We hear her experience with IVF and about how she came to co found the full stop with Michael and Sarah. They have a podcast, so we were a bit in awe, and we were surprised at the end of the conversation that being on this side of the mic is actually a long way out of Berenice's comfort zone. You wouldn't have known that, and we are really grateful that she stepped out of that comfort zone because she was wonderful.

We also talked about re educating AI, childless cat ladies and how she once nearly ran over Richard Osman on her bike.

Dannie-Lu: And we first talk about liminal spaces, those places in between on a journey or an edge that are almost the antidote to the binary labels we sometimes find ourselves with. Please be aware that this episode contains conversations around failed IVF, childless grief, [00:02:00] and mental ill health. So if you don't feel up to listening right now, feel free to skip this episode or come back to it at a later date and check the links in the show notes for support.

Rebecca: Hello Berenice. 

Berenice: Hello.

Rebecca: So tell us, an absolute pleasure to have you, already really excited to be chatting to you. Are you a parent or a non parent? Or is it a bit more complicated than that?

Berenice: It's a bit more complicated than that. 

Rebecca: So how would you describe yourself?

Berenice: more not less is what I describe myself as. which if I could decide on, how it should be, designed, I would have as a tattoo it's so important to me. And I say more not less because I'm childless, not by choice. after six failed rounds of IVF. And I think I've learnt a lot from that.that I wouldn't have otherwise learnt had I not gone through that experience, or at least the experience, I think, of being childless, and one of the things I've come to learn is that I'm not really into labels, I think, I, I kind of like rebel against, labels. I rebel against lots of things, but let's go with labels for now, um. I've got plenty of friends who are parents who say it's life changing. my counter view is that childlessness or, choosing not to have children is also life changing in many ways. with my child free friends. there are lots of complex reasons, why they have chosen not to have children.

There's loads of reasons for that, that I hadn't been appreciative of. But also, obviously from my experiences, within the childless community there are loads and loads of reasons. I remember Jodie Day wrote about, Gateway Women wrote about, 50 ways not to be a mother.

when [00:04:00] I've caught up with her at various points over the years, we're thinking like it's 80, it's 100, it's growing all the time. you add in political and climate change factors and there's even more reasons why people might be a bit more doubtful.

So I think in honour other people. are thinking it's more complicated than that, It's never a straightforward answer. You could ask me tomorrow and it would be a completely different answer, But generally speaking, I've settled on more, not less.

the reason I'd have it as a tattoo, I'd have it somewhere pretty prominent, on a wrist or something like

that because I think that it's a discussion point It's a reminder that actually we are not parent, not parent, but there's all these little kind of liminal spaces where we all sit and they're never quite the same.

and we're all very unique, I think, in non parenting in the way that parents are all unique. Parents have different parenting styles. and there's lots of discussion online because you hear it all the time. but also within that there's lots of styles of childlessness. And there's some crossover, I think, as well, in all of that. there's some similarities in that language and there's,how people arrive into those spaces. There's some similar drivers, I think, for it. I think childlessness has grief. And I would say that's probably the key difference to me. I definitely grieve and I will always grieve. What I don't have and that will never leave me, it's learning to find a way to, to live with that.

And yeah, sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's, it weighs a bit easier, but it is hard.

Dannie-Lu: love that you've used the, concept of liminal space

Rebecca: I

Dannie-Lu: and I feel like liminal is such a nice antidote to labels and we, as a society, we miss the beauty of liminal spaces.don't we? I feel like it's, that's such a beautiful way of thinking about it.

can we connect in the liminal spaces? Because of course we all can.

Berenice: Yeah. I think that kind of ties into the sort of the narrative that's coming over from America at the moment [00:06:00] about the childless cat ladies.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: actually, of language in many ways that kind of.there's always like this hijacking of what childless means when actually, I think, didn't he come back with an apology to say that he didn't mean childless people, he meant child free? But it's still an insult, whichever way you look at it, it's still wrong, it's still not, it's that's just not an apology, mate, you're getting this all wrong and you're just digging yourself, let's give you a spade and you can keep digging. 

Rebecca: No, it wasn't you I was judging. I was judging them. Okay, it was still a judgment.

Dannie-Lu: women. we asked you to label yourself intentionally. We realized that everybody's going to say, not to label, but

Rebecca: I love the way you've labeled yourself as a conversation point, which is really. Amazing. But also the crossovers that you've generally learned through this whole process, the crossover of experience that people can share. 

Rebecca: think that's really important. Listening to other people. actively listening because I think childlessness in my experience still be a divisive space.

gently, I think into that, but it can be, I think a lot of people want or starting to want to hear their voices, but actually, and that's great. I think there's opportunity within that to also listen, and I think there's an opportunity to, again, this collaboration we were talking about earlier before we started to go into the deep questions was about, collaboration. 

Berenice: I don't have a higher kind of grief because I went through IVF. I have a different experience.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: else who hasn't met the right person, who was taken up with caring roles and then didn't meet the right person, it became too late. They all matter.

There's no difference, I think, with that. It's still childless. It's still a grief. It's still something that I can rail against I definitely get angry about IVF and the way that the industry is handled and the lack of aftercare to people whom it fails,

Dannie-Lu: But that's my personal bugbear, but that's doesn't mean to say that it's more than somebody else's in this space I think it's [00:08:00] important to recognize that there's an equity in what we've all been through

Oh, that's so beautifully said because often in my experience and I'm sure Rebecca as well, like I hate to use this word since we're talking U. S. politics, but the trumping of, used as a verb, of each other. it is because we want to be heard and we want to matter and that's okay, but Like you said that equity of experience is a lovely way of thinking about it.

We've all got pain. We've all got joy We've all got all of these human emotions, but they can be wrapped differently different packaging But we all feel and that can get forgotten I think

Berenice: I remember when Jennifer Aniston was talking about her story and actually an awful lot of people wanting to get on to that because it was an opportunity to speak but because such a parallel with IVF and that was part of what she was talking about. It was quite hard, because it's so private and because it's so misunderstood IVF, that it was difficult to perhaps get all those voices heard that wanted to be heard, because a lot of people are going, childless Jennifer Aniston, and actually make a little bit of space for the people who've been through IVF failure, because we don't get, often much of a chance to speak and just allow us a bit of a seat at the table.

We call it the seat at the table on the full stop and I think that's important. we have to be a little more fluid sometimes. 

it's making room. for other people at the table and allowing them to share the things they would like to share. I think that's important.

Dannie-Lu: I love that. 

Dannie-Lu: you've said a lot, Berenice, about how you got to this point. Is there anything you feel you haven't talked about that you would like to share? 

Berenice: I suppose I could tell you a little bit about the healing

Dannie-Lu: power of maybe some of the stuff I've done, I'm not the childless designer. I always steer away from [00:10:00] that, but that said, there is some parallels, I think, between some of the stuff I've done.

Berenice: I've helped out a few people within the childless community. it crosses over into what I do with Hella Lovely, butI want to acknowledge Michael and Sarah in this, and all of the guests, which is many in the audience, in just helping me to heal.

I think that's important. There's a catharticism in talking. Although it's disconcerting when people come up to you at events and go, That thing you said, and I'm like, What did I say? Because I probably overshared a bit in the start, because you didn't think anything was going to turn up, and then you start to realise, Oh, I better be careful and put some boundaries in here with some stuff. So yeah, that was part of why I've got to where I am now. And I'm finding my rebellious state, Yeah.

Rebecca: you mentioned six rounds of IV. F. Uh, 

Berenice: Yeah.

Rebecca: also talked about the full stop podcast and community, 

Berenice: So I just wonder, what length of time all of that was, and I imagine there was a time before all of those six rounds how long that whole journey has been?

Rebecca: you also talked about how much you've learned across that journey.

Berenice: Gosh, I think IVF was about 10 years, And prior to that, maybe about two or three years, maybe five years even of investigation, because we got a bit lost in the NHS. I'd got pregnant beforehand and miscarried. And then everything seemed to stop working. subsequent miscarriages in between all of that, yeah, 10 years. One of the things in the complications of all of this, is that people go, oh, do you just adopt? And actually we had something like 15 embryos. definitely 27 eggs I remember 27 because that was a lot and I had ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome that meant I was quite ill for some time after that, that first round. The embryos go into a freezer because they had to stop everything and started going on to the frozen [00:12:00] cycles. People say this thing about just adopt, but it's impossible to walk away. You've got 15 potential. children

how do you walk away from that? if you believe the hype, then statistically, you're more likely to become a parent through IVF the first part of the problem Is there anything there?

are your eggs scrambled? Can they get anything? and 15 was like, oh wow, it's going to work. It will work.

in between all of that, everything stops. You don't go on holidays. You're just suspended. And then the fallout from the mental health as well. I think staying in a, in a crap job I wasn't happy in because I thought no one would employ me because was unemployable anywhere else because I was going through IVF At least my bosses knew. They weren't very sympathetic about it.

They, we're very difficult to work with, but they were just up the road from Bourne Hall. I couldn't have been there, but I do remember one of the times I had to go in for an embryo transfer when my boss telling me, but we've got to deal with a client today. And I, with some swearing involved in that too, there was some echoing as well it was awful. he apologized in the end, but, it took, it wasn't, Parenthood can, start careers, of course it can, but actually I think infertility treatment for me certainly stopped me. And I look at friends of mine who are freelancers running their own business at the same age I was when I went through IVF and I think you're doing so much better than I am and you've got kids and well done to you everything stopped for me and I regret that terribly, butit just utterly stopped everything for so long, and I feel like constantly now I'm playing catch up with the life that I could have had if I'd have known that it wasn't gonna work, but you just have to try.

You just have to try. Then it was about 10 years after that when the podcast came along, the full stop

Rebecca: Really.

Berenice: I think something like that. it was some time after. I couldn't give you a precise thing. I try and go on when we adopted the [00:14:00] dog and when I then met Michael. It might be six years, but I don't know. There was definitely a break in between, but I do know, and we've talked about this collectively on the podcast, that there was a lot of anger in how we felt at the time. I was full of anger and I was ready to really rail at everything.

but I had to manage that anger and grief order to do the podcast better. I think I've grown because of it, the anger drove the confidence I had 

Rebecca: my confidence has waned a little bit along the way because I don't have the anger there, and that is a real conflict in my mind at the moment, 

that's fascinating.

Berenice: Yeah, I know, it's a bit a blip, I'm like, 

Rebecca: can take you a long way, I guess, can't it?

Berenice: isn't it that thing that women were told not to be angry? sometimes it's really good to be angry. 

Dannie-Lu: Definitely. 

gives us a lot of energy. And I love when you said about the rebellion as well, like rebellion, or I always say about defiance as well. if we can't get angry, can we get a bit defiant or a bit rebellious instead? Maybe that's another way we can generate some of that energy.

Berenice: Probably. Yeah. I've certainly much more kind of aware of how I respond to people. I would suffer fools a bit more gladly than I do now. a few people I don't, wouldn't choose to be friends with, but happened to share spaces with and, lack filters.

and I'm better at responses now. 

Rebecca: it's interesting meeting you and seeing what you've achieved and where you've taken your anger and all of your experience. I'm really interested in the word regret because, I wonder what it is that you do regret.

Berenice: I'd probably say I regret the last embryo, because we didn't think it was worth it. defrosting it, and I wished I had because the risk was [00:16:00] so high. That's definitely a regret, I regret probably the fact that it was so consuming, but then again I'm probably being quite hard on myself. The whole process of trying to be a mother was so all consuming, looking back. I think there are gaps to do better things, but you do what you do at the time. It's only coming out of it.

I changed jobs, just before the last cycle. And whilst it was,it's been rocky, I think, because. People that I was working with but were parents or one was trying for adoption. But actually I realised that you don't have to make up the hours. And it just made me think, okay, this is okay. I can manage I was much further away from home. The commute was much longer. 

.

and it wasn't easy, but it was better in some respects. and I know there's a different space and time to talk about this somewhere else not here but and again not in the podcast but there needs to be so much more education about IVF in order for people to make better decisions because I think we can find a way.

my experience was going into this ballroom at Bourne Hall and Bourne Hall, of course, is laden with history. And they've got this big ballroom and you go in and they've got pictures of children that have been born from IVF on all of the walls.

you feel this expectation. I think what I most regret is someone didn't give me a kick up the arse and said, this is selling. This is selling a life, it's selling something to you there are other choices, other clinics, other solutions available 

Berenice: I felt like there was no part of me that was untouched by IVF that I couldn't go through, having the rest of my boundaries and private life taken away by social workers.

I couldn't do it.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: I don't regret that. But I think there's a regret around that, that actually maybe that's the reason, that is the reason I think for the full stop. I know it's the reason for the full stop, there are bad days, there is a worry [00:18:00] about aging, there is a worry about care, but I have met the most amazing people because of childlessness. I have got the most deep friendships, the most incredible experiences. I would never have stood on the stage, I wouldn't have probably done my master's degree if it wasn't for IVF and childlessness. I wouldn't have done it, I would have been doing other things, I did a master's degree, I did Hello Lovely, my business, I'm done here, it's all stopped, All these things I'm doing because of it.

So I think sometimes maybe there's a sort of regret about, okay, people need to know more, but it's not great. But when I arrived at this space, thinking, I'm never going to be a parent, I didn't know anybody. And I really hope anyone that is listening to this and thinking that could be me, there are so many people out there to talk to now that were not there before. and there are friends out there, people of all genders, men starting to talk about childlessness. we are a force to be reckoned with. There is a grit in this community that There's a grit.

Dannie-Lu: You've said that, you've said that so beautifully. I, I fully, as another member of the childless community, I, I would fully echo that. I feel like I've met some incredible people who have kept me going and held me up, at times. I love the grit. it's the one thing that is given to, I suppose, all of us, Through different ways, but especially

the childless community.

Berenice: ​

But also the life changing experience of not being a parent, in balance to the life changing experience of being a parent. It'sit's still life changing, whatever way you package it up, and actually that family is different. It's not any less, more, or difficult, or anything. We all have caring responsibilities, we're all knackered, there's no competition on being [00:20:00] tired. It's the same, just different, can we please talk about that with parents, and have some meeting in the middle, and some respect.

Hmm. for what we've been through, because I'm sick and tired of having to defend, and I don't anymore, I refuse to defend that.

I'm tired, deal with it.

Rebecca: you

Berenice: felt that you've had to defend your tiredness? Is that, Oh, God, I remember having a conversation with somebody about being tired. I just happened to mention oh, how are you? I'm tired and they said try being up with a child, that's tired, I said, you should try being up with a bucket load of grief waking up at two, three, four in the morning thinking, is this my life because I don't have a child? that grief is there forever. I can deal with it in a different way, but that is it. I wake up, in the early hours of the morning and grieve. I don't have to go to a room and see that there's a child there and go, it could get better, because it will get better.I find a different way of handling it, and that's the situation I think many people who are childless live with.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: Yeah, and I thought, that was, I was okay with saying that, because I was just like, sod you. No, is the reality of it. But then again, I felt oh my god, I'm going for the pity party here. that's how people, I think, deal with discomfort. I'd rather have an argument or discussion about it than the pity. But, that's other people's emotions. I don't have to take that on.

But of course, naturally, we do. We've tried to excuse perhaps that other people might feel discomfort. I'mpast that. I'm dealing with it, but it's not an easy one. I recognize.

Rebecca: we want people to talk more about all of our experiences and to find more interesting stuff in the liminal spaces we've shared that. which is why I think, when you share the facts of feeling grief, regularly, 20 years after your journey started at 3am in the morning, it's really helpful for [00:22:00] me to hear.

as somebody who has a child and gets tired, I think it's really helpful to hear those things. There's some murky area in the middle where If you're the one feeling the experience that doesn't seem to be understood by the other person or society, you have to take a step sometimes to share that experience in a factual way, 

You have to sometimes find it within yourself to share that, don't you? Because if you don't, then we're all just going to stay in our different silos.

Berenice: absolutely agree. 

Rebecca: But it's hard. 

Berenice: it's 

But I think that's where sometimes those of us who are.

a bit further along and a bit more vocal can do more to help the next generation, I think, the current generation, sometimes it just takes people standing up.

And I think it is that meeting the middle. What I don't like to do. would never feel comfortable doing is to make that division bigger, because I think that's unnecessary. It gets us nowhere. maybe in the past, I've done that before, I can remember one of my complete kind of like when I completely collapsed with my mental health was weirdly cycling home from somewhere, 

This was one of them, the first time I think it collapsed, it was just a mother and a child innocently cycling home, but something happened with them and they got in the way I just literally couldn't cope with

I just quietly sat there at the top of these traffic lights on my bicycle, falling apart. in the middle of the city I live in and I thought, Oh, God. it beats the time when I was at the other traffic lights further down and I nearly ran over Richard Osman from Pointless. 

Dannie-Lu: no.

Berenice: I was like, Oh, Tallfella. And he literally walked across the road and the lights for me were on green. I was like, Oh my God, Tallfella walking across the road. I know you from somewhere, but I don't know. Oh, yay. God, it's Richard Osman.

What's the number of celebrities who walked across and not obey the green cross code in front of a cyclist in Cambridge is not, [00:24:00] probably not that high, but mate, you've on the list.

One, famous occupation in Cambridge where it's a cycling capital of the world. it's just the way of things that happen. And I think it wasn't anything that had been done, but it was the fact I saw this woman with her child and I thought, I want that, and I

can't, 

and it took me a long time to get to that point, and I, and I just don't feel that there's any reason to, to create that divide.

In fact, I openly talk about the full stop alongside Hello Lovely and Business Networks, and I share the newsletter with them, so they can choose to go in and read our newsletter, which talks about childlessness and business support, if they chose to, but it's there on their radar,

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: it probably the third thing about me rather than the first thing, which it probably was before I set up Hello Lovely. It was the thing that was there the most. I'm childless, but actually it was something in the way that I'm childless and I need you to know that I am 

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. 

Berenice: I think there's some really fantastic conversations out there with parents that need to be cultivated the more we can do that the more power there is for now, for future, because this is a legacy that we can leave, that is a library of content that you're creating, I'm creating, that other people are creating people can go, okay I've got a friend, I've got someone I know who's childless, how do I support them and they can go. Oh, that over there. It could be the work you're doing here. It could be Fertility Matters at work. It could be Gateway Women's Childless Week. It could be loads of things. World Childless Week, there's lots of stuff going on.

Dannie-Lu: hmm.

Berenice: empty. Google search that limits you to, I don't know, and also overriding AI, I think, and changing the narrative on AI because that certainly my experience a year ago was the solution was just adopt and now it's changed because I think

Dannie-Lu: Oh wow. 

Berenice: I had that on something.

someone wrote some stuff about an award I won. they were like, here's the show notes. no, it's not. She's explored adoption, it said. And I'm like, I [00:26:00] don't, 

Dannie-Lu: interesting about the AI thing. I wouldn't have had that on radar until you've said that. yeah, all have a responsibility there, don't we? 

Berenice: We have a responsibility to retrain AI and I'm passionate about that. what we're trying to do is to retrain it so that it acknowledges. every so often I go in and chat with chat GPT about childlessness to see what it's doing, to make sure that it's like.

actually, and I will tell it. You are wrong. Let's have another conversation. I'm talking to this machine, but actually I'm educating it because it's not like that. yeah. Cause again, it's driven by society opinion, which of course can be, skewed towards women are here to have children and men too.

It's more complicated than that.

Dannie-Lu: and also

Berenice: Yeah.

the things that we don't talk about readily. Right. So if we keep it inside our brain, then the robots aren't going to learn. And I mean, there's a part of that that I'm kind of cool with the robots not knowing everything. I quite like it.I like it when they get me really wrong they advertise something that's entirely not me, but actually you're, you're talking about something that if people go down that route.

Rebecca: Now, they need to know the stuff that's inside people's brains because otherwise people are going to get us very, all very wrong.you mentioned loads of different places where people can meet, gather, talk, share. All their experience, and we will include all of those placesso that we can retrain AI with our show notes, 

Berenice: I really like that all of those are slightly different. Also, places that feel like they are simply just a group of friends and that's all we're doing. And then other places that feel more supportive, the idea that you've got a choice in that, that it's not that we're one homogenous group and here's this one place we go for support, Yeah, very much about that, because the Full Stop community, we only did that like in June last year. we're diverse in that we welcome anyone whose child is not by choice. So it's not just aimed at [00:28:00] women. It's aimed at everybody, regardless of race, gender, age, religion. sexuality.

There's no boundaries to that. It's just everybody. as long as your child is not by choice, because I think our motto is that we can learn from each other But that said, we're not always the right fit for everybody and that's okay.

Dannie-Lu: I think that's important to acknowledge and to be okay with that Michael as a guy might put off some women, but we offer a very safe space

Berenice: that conversation. Other places might be better, but a lot of people have said they like the safety of having him there and other guys because it makes them feel safe because they've not felt, They don't have been aware of that male dialogue and I certainly, I only know it through my partner's experiences and he doesn't talk much Michael is very open in his conversation about his experiences now, but that's a catharticism for him, but that means we're all learning with him So yeah, but there's other places out there We are not the only resource but that's the point of the podcast, isn't it?

As you know it's the guest voices. we're actively promoting people's stuff, that's what we do, in the hope that they will also actually promote our stuff, because at the end of the day, it's good to have that reciprocation. I think that's important, that collaboration, but ultimately it's about the guest and what they're bringing to the table in terms of offering to listeners.

So we're very much aware that, we have people from different community groups to talk about what they do or the resources that they do. New stuff that's happening is always interesting to us because it means that's more conversational pieces, more support end of the day.

And that's just an amazing thing. It's more safe spaces to build people's confidence so that then they might feel that they can talk about it on our podcast or with other people in many ways. I think podcasts are good because they're like practice areas,

And I'm thinking, oh, Berenice is all going to go out there to the world. But actually, it's just a nice time to chat. And if somebody else gets something from this and goes, I want to go off and do a thing, or maybe I want to come on the podcast and have a talk about it. It's a nice little kind of learning curve to share a [00:30:00] story.

And then maybe somebody else goes, Oh yeah, I identify with that, and they get some help, and so it goes on, and it's lovely big roller effect I like that very much. It's like a little snowflake, and we're all gathering speed. At some point, we're just going to go, wham!

And people are going, look! We're here! Hi! 

Dannie-Lu: 10 years ago, maybe even less, there wasn't anything. You know, I can't remember when Jodie set up Gateway Women, but she was my first experience of a community. And now there's a choice. That's joyous to me personally, that there's a choice.

Berenice: I think it's 12 years now. 11 or 12.

Dannie-Lu: just over,

Berenice: first thing was I saw B. B. Lynch's article in the Guardian. talking about that and that was my introduction to it and I've met her. Oh gosh, it's just like amazing.

Dannie-Lu: need to get Bibi on the podcast, actually.

Berenice: your square rating will go like really, she's fantastic.

Rebecca: exciting.

Berenice: she's a fabulous talk that I've heard at Fertility Fest about being tired and it is amazing because it's funny but it's also a truth 

and she's just great. 

she's, good. She is very unapologetic and I'm very grateful for her voice as well. Yeah. 

Dannie-Lu: We have loved hearing all these stories and we want to hear more.

We do. So if you have something that you want to share about your story, your complicated journey, or anything that you feel belongs in this conversation, then get in touch.

Rebecca: You can go to complicatedpod. co. uk to find out more about the different stories we've already told and to let us know why you want to be part of this excellent cavalcade of stories.

Dannie-Lu: There's a contact form just to fill out to send in your submission and we can take it from there.

I'm wondering if [00:32:00] there's anything else, Berenice, that you feel people can get, about the reality of your life that you haven't already addressed. 

Berenice: I think there's a perception around things being enough. this whole idea, maybe the perception of, not for everybody, but for myself, that actually, you've done these things and therefore that's enough. you've recovered.

Mm.

fairly recently, oh, you must be over it by now. and I was too gobsmacked at the time to say, what?

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: What the hell do you mean? Because it blindsided me in a way that I wasn't thinking, and it's someone I knew at the time of my last IVF failure. I was blown away by that

Dannie-Lu: because I thought, Nah. And that, I think, is probably the thing, I've touched on it already about, it being a lifelong kind of grief and I think it's true with choosing not to have children too, it's, this is it's not changing, nothing's changing, but it doesn't mean to say I'm over anything, it's coping with something, I think is how I would call it, I'm learning to live with. I think that, for me, I think is a big kind of blocker and, and just because I'm doing these things. whatever that might be that other people are doing, maybe they're doing different things, maybe, they're doing their own kind of community, they're doing other stuff. Yeah, okay, fine, they're doing these things, but it doesn't mean to say that It fills a gap or it's enough. 

Berenice: It's a different thing. or it ties back to more not less, but that we are, to be pitied for what we don't have. I've spoken to Karin and Phil DeVears about this Um, several times about the notion of pity

No, I don't accept pity. but I've had that

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: times within my own family and that's been really hard.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: Because actually I'm enormously proud of what I've done, [00:34:00] and I'm proud of everybody that I know who is childless for things that they have done, and that might just be as simple as, I get up today because I've been in that position where I have not wanted to get out of bed I've had those suicidal thoughts So there are significant things getting out of bed. Finding some support, contacting somebody, doing something, finding just a nugget, tiniest glimmer of something that might help, I think is incredible. And that's not to be pitied or devalued, it's to be celebrated and honoured.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Berenice: One of the things you've got in the full stop community is celebrate your wins.

Dannie-Lu: Nice.

Berenice: Because I think that's important and they can be anything. Some of them are just so moving, but it's celebrating a win. to me getting out of bed, maybe acknowledging I don't want to get out of bed because actually life is crap and I can't deal with this and I'm torn by grief. It's an acknowledgement and that is a win.

it's amazing what those wins could be. It's, acknowledging that we've been through stuff.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah, that's so nice. The care, I agree with you because one of the emojis that I hate on Facebook is the care emoji, I know it's well intended, but yeah, it's that

Berenice: Yeah,

Dannie-Lu: need the, with the applause or the kind of the grit accolade of, you know, whatever people have gone through.

Right.

Rebecca: So you said It's about, oh, there's all lots of other things and they're enough. understanding that's not the case without veering into pity because nobody wants pity, right?

Berenice: I feel like I don't think I've ever met anybody no,

Rebecca: it's a negative word. nobody wants pity, but we do want understanding. So

Berenice: yeah. But yeah, I think it's just being listened to, being seen, being heard, and respect. 

Dannie-Lu: true empathy really, isn't it? To listen and go, I can't fix it, but I can listen and I can hold a space and identify that this is what's going on for you.

Berenice: yeah, we've often thought about that. We do a podcast about that, about what is it, the thing, and actually what it is, is empathy. [00:36:00] it's better than, some flowers and then I'm sorry. 

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rebecca: oh man.

Berenice:

so we have one last question. If you could wave a magic wand and change something about society, I wonder what you would do. I would, create a compulsory reading list of books, not necessarily childlessness,but there's a culture list or somethingbecause it can counteract stuff around misinformation, which I think is the crux of most evil in the world.

one of them would actually be, there's a really fantastic projecta book called citizens by John Alexander it's around citizenship and citizenship Friday is a hashtag that I think everyone needs to look at because it's about repairing, reusing and respecting the environment. And it's an incredible book. the hashtag is also really good about how we can be better as citizens. 

Dannie-Lu: nice.

Berenice: is around listening, empathy, but also it's about our environment and around how we associate with other people. And John is incredible, for that. And I think it could make the world, parts of the world better if people just listen to some painful truths about politics and about environment, about what we're told and what we're not told. for me, that would be a compulsory read. There's other things,

Rebecca: Wow.

Berenice: I'm giving you a book list, not a magic wand. but I love

Rebecca: I'm thinking if we're going to go magic wand, we can just put all those books inside people's heads, Berenice. So let's just do that.

Berenice: oh, I like that. Oh, I love your imagination. Oh, totally, yeah. 

Rebecca: Stick them all in.

Berenice: Osmosis.

Yeah, I like that. Magic wand it. yeah. So Citizens, I think is one of them. I think it's a really important book to read. And I think it just alters culturality. I think culture and culturality is a big part of [00:38:00] What I am, I think, as well.

And maybe if everybody just stopped flying a bit too, that would be quite good. that would be quite nice. 

Rebecca: I'm afraid you've already waved your wand and that's I can't do anything about it. We can only wave it once.

Berenice: I'm alright. 

Rebecca: I'm going to say we don't make the rules, but, I think we did make the rules. 

Berenice: Can I have one more in that case, which would be that everyone has access, I think, to, so that childless people have access to good. experience, mental health, because it's enormously saved me. 

And you should for it and push for it, and I know that's hard. But goodness me, it's important to you.

Berenice, thank you so much. I've loved my time with you. I really have. It's been absolutely brilliant. 

Rebecca: If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by subscribing and sharing and you can donate by visiting ko fi. com forward slash complicated pod. We are really proud of this podcast. We really believe in it and we would so appreciate your support. Yeah. You can find out more about what we're doing and all the different episodes that we're going to feature. go to our website, complicatedpod. co. uk and you can become a first friend of the podcast for just four pounds a month, or just buy us a coffee and wish us well, we would appreciate it.

Thank you.