Choose your Silver Lining - Rachel

In this episode, we spoke to Rachel, who lives in Norfolk and runs a manufacturing business, as well as working in financial coaching. A busy person, Rachel's main goal in life is to find ways to chill out and enjoy herself more and work less!

We spoke to Rachel about being a mum to two rainbow babies who are now teenagers and an angel baby. And the complicatedness of that, along with all the love, grief, humor, and tears that goes with it.

We talked about the importance of laughter, of dark humor, communicating and honesty, and we laughed a lot.

This episode covers stillbirth, miscarriage, and grief extensively. So if that's not for you right now, please pass on this. Some of the links below may be useful.

The photo we talk about in the episode: Rachel's two daughters at Amy's grave
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13cVsw4e8bLRnaoLyQSKtIa0HRa7GVzzH/view?usp=sharing

Baby Loss Awareness Week
https://www.miscarriageassociation.org.uk/get-involved/raising-awareness/babyloss-awareness-week/

Baby Loss awareness
https://babyloss-awareness.org/

SANDS
https://www.sands.org.uk/blaw

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Rachel: [00:00:00] the phrase I came out with afterwards was, I can choose the silver lining.

It doesn't mean I chose the cloud.

Dannie-Lu: Oh, I like that.

Rachel: know, we had nights where we could sleep, which we wouldn't have had if we had a baby. could go on holiday, which we couldn't have done if we had a baby. we gave ourselves permission to enjoy those because choosing the lining didn't mean we'd chosen the cloud. 

Rebecca: Hello, and welcome to It's a Bit More Complicated Than That, where we are listening to all the fascinating, sad, joyful, messy answers that follow the question, So, do you have kids?

I'm Rebecca.

Dannie-Lu: I'm Dannie-Lu,

Rebecca: I'm a parent.

Dannie-Lu: and I'm not. But it's a bit more complicated than that. And that's the same for pretty much every one of our guests. 

Rebecca: Every episode, we ask one guest whether they're a parent or not, whether it's a bit more complicated than that, and a few other questions about their journey. we see where it 

goes.

Dannie-Lu: And to finish, we give them a magic wand and ask if there's anything they'd change about society if they could. 

Rebecca: In this episode, we spoke to Rachel, a business owner who lives in Norfolk and runs a manufacturing business, as well as working in financial coaching. a busy person, Rachel's main goal in life is to find ways to chill out and enjoy herself more and work less.

Dannie-Lu: We spoke to Rachel about being a mum to two rainbow babies who are now teenagers and an angel baby. And the complicatedness of that, along with all the love, grief, humor, and tears that goes with it.

Rebecca: We talked about the importance of laughter, of dark humor, communicating and honesty, and we laughed a lot.

Dannie-Lu: And note that this episode covers stillbirth, miscarriage, and grief extensively. So if [00:02:00] that's not for you right now, please pass on this and see the many links in the show notes for support. 

hello Rachel.

Hi Rachel.

Rachel: Hello.

Rebecca: So, tell us, you a parent or a non parent, or is it a bit more complicated than that? How would you describe yourself?

Rachel: I am a parent, 100 percent parent. I've got two girls is how I would traditionally describe it. I've got Milo who's 17 and Karen who's nearly 15. but I also have an angel baby. I had my first child, was still born at full term. And so technically I have three children. It's become easier as I've got older because the other two have taken up so much of my life. certainly in the early days, someone asked me how many children I had. It was really difficult to answer that question because every time I said two, felt like I was denying my firstborn. And every time I said three, I invited a whole load of questions about why I only had two here. if I said two, and then, randomly said something like, I've given birth three times. It causes so much confusion.

Dannie-Lu: It's interesting that, isn't it?

Rachel: complicated.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. 

Rebecca: I was gonna, uh, ask or maybe state and then see what your thoughts were, Rachel, on the fact that confuses people. Because to me that feels like, why would that confuse people? I think, because obviously one's head, I would assume, would go to one of maybe a few possibilities as to why that might be the case.

Dannie-Lu: But it's always interesting to me that people are, Quite simple, sometimes, the way that they think about this.

Rachel: I think the assumptions are always the easiest ones.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: so if you say you've got two children, people assume that [00:04:00] you tried for two children. you have two children.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: as simple as that. People don't think beyond that.

they

Dannie-Lu: had a few months of trying, but then along comes the baby and then They're careful for a while or oops, there's number two suddenly, you know, this thing just happens it flows They might have a few little weird complications little scares in the middle, but it all just flows

Even for people who know that this isn't always the case You know, they know that there are people struggling with infertility, they know there are people that lose babies. They don't want to think about that. I can clearly remember a conversation in the bakery. And I don't know why I was talking to the woman behind the bakery about children, she asked how many kids I had, and she said two.

Rachel: And I think she must have been pregnant, because we were talking about pregnancies. At some point later in the conversation, I referred to three pregnancies, or giving birth three times. And, the look on her face, and I thought, oh god, now I've got to explain, don't I? But I struggle so hard. to lie. And to me, it does feel like a lie. It, should just be a simple omission. You know, we just talk about the two. Let's, you know, I don't need to open my soul to the people in the bakery. but it feels like I'm lying if I don't say.

Dannie-Lu: my third time of giving birth 

And, yeah, it just opens conversations that you don't necessarily want to open

Yeah.

Rachel: I'm sure that you don't necessarily 

want to have it. Is it the right time and place? That's what has always felt so complicated for me

Dannie-Lu: was navigating the truth with just not making it far too complicated in the moment.

Yeah.

Rachel: things that actually people don't really need to know about right now.

Rebecca: Mmm.

Rachel: sense?

Dannie-Lu: It totally makes sense. And it's they do need to know about it and they also don't. It's, that's the straddle, isn't it? Because

Rachel: Mm.

Dannie-Lu: And I [00:06:00] really hear that knowing like the need to be truthful and to honor your own experience and to honor your child, all of your children, but the child, that it's really difficult.

And also it's important that society, which hence us doing this podcast really is aware of all the different versions or as many different versions of this that could possibly be, and there are thousands,

Rachel: Mm.

Dannie-Lu: and yet the vulnerability for you of, Saying that in the bakery is, and the ask of you, has it been your experience, is enormous.

it depends what day it is as well.

Yeah.

Rachel: the early days, you wouldn't have had that conversation with me without floods of tears. even today, you know, 18 and a half years later, I am still coming into this podcast with tissues. I know at some point, I'll well up and, and, that's all I've got left now,

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: grief.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: And I found, it's one of the things that I sort of found over the years, is that the grief doesn't change, you just get better at carrying it and hiding it. and it just gets easier to carry. You get stronger, so you carry the same thing just better.

Dannie-Lu: but I actually sometimes, I like to cry about it. Because it's all I have left of her, 

It does.

Rachel: She was mine. And I loved her. You

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: what else could I give her?

Dannie-Lu: I think that's the beauty of grief, isn't it? Because. I heard, I always refer to Jodie Day, she's the woman who talks a lot about the childlessness and all the different versions of what that is for people. And she defines grief as if I don't have my grief it means I didn't have the love and I did have the love and I do have the love.

And grief's the other side of the love coin and I always find that's such a beautiful way to think about grief because so many of us, if not all of us, have grief of different varieties. And yet, as a society, We don't talk about it very much and so it becomes difficult or we feel like we should not have it or we should deal with it in certain ways and actually it's, a very [00:08:00] honorary thing to grieve.

It's the love, it's the love is still alive in you and that's a kind of beautiful thing really.

Rachel: I always said that grief is the price we pay for love

Yeah. because it's worth having that love and I consider myself exceptionally lucky, you know, I fell pregnant very easily, which I know so many people don't,

Dannie-Lu: and I know how heartbreaking that must be, and I went on to have two beautiful, healthy children. 

a couple of miscarriages in the middle between the two. Thankfully, not before the first live baby. I I, I don't know how I could have coped with that, but I know there's so many people out there who don't, you know, that stillborn child. Is the only child they managed to have, you

Yeah.

Rachel: and I've heard stories of an IVF journey ending stillbirth.

I mean, my heart just

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: for those people to have gone so far through that journey to have it pulled away. I mean, it was. Bad enough that it was pulled away from me. If you see what I mean, it's hard to

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: I feel as society, we almost want to say your grief is more than mine. And it's not, it's just a different grief. hurts a lot. 

Dannie-Lu: that's come up a few times, that thing of trying to outdo each other that we do societally, rather than share 

Rebecca: Sharing

Dannie-Lu: of grief.

Rebecca: outdoing. That's an interesting, comparison. There was something I noticed that you said why can't I just lie?like we do, lie so much. sometimes our entire day is a lie. Do you know what I mean?

Like we lie so much. oh yeah, fine. like all sorts of lies that we're really comfortable with. And it just feels like.

Rachel: for that. It's a

Yeah.

Dannie-Lu: Mmm, yeah.

Rebecca: quite. I

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. Ha ha ha [00:10:00] ha ha ha ha!

Rebecca: lies mean so much more, I think, that's it, and some lies are difficult do because you're dishonoring something that is, a part of you.

And I think that's, it feels great to hear that from you, that, that this is a thing that I almost physically can't lie about. that's why I find myself in a bakery explaining something that I don't even know how to explain, that's because it's like actually some like some lies, just involve so much more and it's good to hear that.

Rachel: the other thing was about, the legacy of something being a taboo for so long, because

Yeah.

Rebecca: about my reaction when somebody tells me. the story of somebody who died and my feelings at first when I received that I think that there's a legacy of things being a taboo so we are so unexpecting that information being landed on us. We just don't expect it. And then we maybe don't want it. Yeah.

Rachel: I think we're so scared of it. 

Is your pain catching?

Dannie-Lu: yeah.

Rachel: and we don't, you know, are we going to make it worse? You know, so many people have said, you know, I didn't want to mention it in case I hurt you. It's like, well, I'm hurting anyway. I've read that in several books of people who've lost, you know, children that have sort of grown up a bit. And I, I've always, I can't even imagine

you know, one of the two I've got now. And they say, mentioning that person doesn't hurt me. I'm hurting anyway, but mentioning them helps me.

And it means that they've been here and they've touched you.

Dannie-Lu: yeah.

Rachel: people get very scared about what to say. I was so lucky. I didn't experience this, but I joined, the SANDS website, shortly after, we lost Amy and I got a lot of [00:12:00] support from the forums they had there. they had people would walk through their village and others would cross the road, not to speak to them. Because they didn't know what to say,

Dannie-Lu: Oh my goodness.

Rachel: just think you don't have to say anything, you can say you're sorry, give them a hug, and then move on. 

Dannie-Lu: but as a society, we often ignore things.

Yeah.

Rachel: that's, I think why we don't talk about it because I remember when we lost Amy, my sister in law, I adore her, she married to my brother. was so angry. She's like, why didn't they tell you this could happen?

14 month old at the time and it hadn't even occurred to her that stillbirth was still a thing. 

You know, that people die in childbirth, you know, it doesn't happen now, but clearly it does.

I realized afterwards that the reason it's not talked about is that people don't want to burst the bubble, you know, because I saw people who were pregnant afterwards, and I didn't really want to mention what had happened to me. Because I didn't need them living in fear for their pregnancy. You know, if they could get through it with blissful ignorance, I wanted to be happy for them. You know, if you can get through a pregnancy without ever considering multitude of ways, and I now know far too many ways that it can go wrong. If you can go through that in that ignorance, then actually, that's a nice thing.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: But at the same time, it does mean that you're utterly railroaded. if and when something does happen. And I think if we can talk about it as a society, generally, rather than having the specific conversation with the pregnant person sat in front of you, because that probably is a bit intense me to go, Oh, you're 38 weeks pregnant, careful the next week, the dangerous ones.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: it's a stupid thing to say. You'd never do [00:14:00] it. But I do have a very dark sense of humor.

Rebecca: Oh, 

Dannie-Lu: welcome. Gallow's humour, welcome and essential.

Rebecca: Yeah, I'm definitely not edited 

Rachel: in,

Dannie-Lu: It's a way of coping though, isn't it? Gallow's humour, I think.

Rachel: After we'd had Amy, my husband and I decided we were going to look on the positive of everything. the phrase I came out with afterwards was, I can choose the silver lining.

It doesn't mean I chose the cloud.

Dannie-Lu: Oh, I like that.

Rachel: know, we had nights where we could sleep, which we wouldn't have had if we had a baby. could go on holiday, which we couldn't have done if we had a baby. we gave ourselves permission to enjoy those because choosing the lining didn't mean we'd chosen the cloud.

Dannie-Lu: What a beautiful expression. I'm going to use that.

Rebecca: doesn't change the shape of the cloud or the size of the cloud. I think there's some fear I sometimes have is that you choose your silver lining, you've somehow made the cloud smaller and then that does, that dishonours that terrible grief that you've got, right?

But if you know the cloud is the same size and you're choosing and the choice is great, Yeah, it's brilliant.

Rachel: And I just feel that, if you don't, you just sit under that cloud so much, and it doesn't mean that you wouldn't change it. I mean, I always said literally up to the second I got pregnant with my next child, I would have done anything to have Amy back. Once I got pregnant, I actively decided to choose that child. because she needed to know that she wasn't replacing someone else that she was wanted in her own right. And actually I've told her this since, and she takes, a lot of comfort from that, knowing that she was actively chosen. But that didn't mean I couldn't give myself permission to really actively enjoy I wouldn't have had otherwise. 

Dannie-Lu: I think as a society sometimes we, can forget the human [00:16:00] capacity to hold a multitude of different experiences of all different colours and emotions simultaneously, we're enjoying the holiday, we're absolutely looking forward to this child that we're going to have, we're going to give her all the love and everything, and we're going to hold this memory and this love for Amy, and we can hold all of it, and I think sometimes we become over simplistic societally into how we view People's capacity, we can underestimate each other a lot.

Rebecca: I think that's the biggest issue in society at the moment,

Dannie-Lu: we are trying to simplify everything down to a sentence, to a soundbite, to a motto, to something simple. And instead, if you can have like these conversations, this is why when I heard about your podcast, I thought, yes, this is brilliant. The more stories we can hear, the more conversations we can have, the more we can understand rich tapestry that is everybody's lives. The more compassionate we can be for somebody else's life,

Yeah. 

Rachel: see it in the media so much, you have people either berating people for not having children,

Dannie-Lu: how dare you not, get more children for the future, or you have people going, how dare you have four children, you know, this is awful.

Rachel: but nobody is looking underneath those stories.

who's not got the child,

Dannie-Lu: the conscious decision of the woman who's decided not to have children, even that decision is not easy.

No.

Rachel: That's complicated. and we try to make life so simple and being simple just allows people to railroad others,

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. Absolutely. Mm

guilty party. hmm.

Rachel: I just want us to talk more, understand people more, then maybe we can be a little bit more compassionate in society.

Dannie-Lu: Definitely.

Rebecca: you were going to tell us something that had an element of black humour.

Rachel: Oh, bloody

Rebecca: think, as you said, you started

Dannie-Lu: Mm mm. Yeah.

Rebecca: onto the silver lining that was beautiful. 

Rachel: soul was [00:18:00] lighting. yeah, it was shortly after we'd had Amy, so maybe a week. not even that, but we were lying in bed talking my husband said something funny. Now I, I couldn't tell you what it was. we tried to make each other laugh all the time and I started to laugh and I had the post birth jelly belly. Cause obviously it hasn't gone down at that point. You've just been out here and then, and my belly started to wobble. And honestly, he gave me the giggles, which then made me laugh more, which made him laugh more. We ended up in utter hysterics at this jelly of a tummy of mine, and it was just ridiculous. And when we sort of had wiped our eyes and calmed down again, we just thought, this is what you need in life is to, to laugh next to the crying. You can't have one or the other, you know, and we, we actively tried to put both into our lives. Wherever we could.

Dannie-Lu: I love that. Because that's what life's about. It's the tears and the humour together. They're so side by side, actually, aren't they?

Rebecca: how, you want to take us through a little bit about how you got to 14 year old, did you say, and then 18 year old, and it's been

Rachel: yeah. 14 and 17.

I had Amy in December, 2005 and, I was so desperate to be pregnant again afterwards. I got to about June, and I realized I was just wasting my life. I really was sitting under that cloud. I had a friend who told me about her parents who had taken two years to have a baby after they'd lost their first one. And I was like, I'm not going to sit here, you know, just obsessing about another baby. So I decided I was going to do all the things, I couldn't do if I was pregnant. So went and booked an all inclusive holiday with lots of free [00:20:00] alcohol. booked a trip to Ragdale Hall, where I discovered afterwards that you, there's a lot of the treatments you can't have if you're pregnant. And I just decided To let go. Now, I know from the basis of your podcast, I am exceptionally lucky and I put my hand up and I, you know, as I said, my heart breaks for people that it wasn't this simple.

Dannie-Lu: For me, I was so lucky. Letting go and just getting on with my life was what I needed to do. so I didn't drink a single thing on that holiday. I had a manicure because that's all they would do. and thankfully, you know, within a couple of months, I was pregnant. So I had Milo May 2007, and then we decided very early on that we wanted another one. And we decided that because we didn't want Milo to be too precious for us to be so scared of her that we would wrap her

in cotton wool that she wouldn't get a life.

Rachel: so we actually got pregnant. Just a year later, and I had a miscarriage actually on Milo's first birthday,

Dannie-Lu: Oh, wow.

Rachel: which was exceptionally hard.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

It was only seven weeks. Doesn't matter it's still tough.

Rachel: the grand scheme of things, it was nothing. 

It was a very painful day and I think it was because of the, it was Milo's birthday and you know, to start It was just, it was horrible. I did move through that quite quickly, I'm pleased to say. I think it was, Comparatively, you know, I was able to handle and deal with it much more quickly, because of what I've been through. We then went another few months and got pregnant again, which was really exciting. I was pregnant at my sister's wedding. [00:22:00] and then shortly after we went for the first scan and we discovered that there was no heartbeat. So the baby had stopped growing at eight or nine weeks and just hadn't miscarried. So, I had to go through the whole sort of DNC and all of this sort of stuff for that. and then it was about a year after that that we had Karen. So, it was about two and a half years in total. so it wasn't An easy journey. It's not a couple of years I'd back to at all, really, I was, it took me quite a while to sort of get through the emotion on top of emotion on top of emotion. I think I didn't really process. A lot of it until probably a couple of years after Karen had been born, you're just so focused on the next thing and focused on the next thing. And it might have been more sensible to have tried to process things as I went along, but you know, we women don't do that, do we?

We just crack on

Rebecca: Well, processing anything with a toddler is somewhat difficult

Rachel: to happen,

Rebecca: because they're not, toddlers aren't keen on you having emotion

Rachel: four and a half years.

Rebecca: that sort of, that's an awful lot. there's an awful lot of layers there. and a very present job to do, of keeping this person, this human kind of going,

Dannie-Lu: And also 

everything your body had been through with all of those, your first child, your second child, your miscarriages, your still heartbeat, your DNC, your next pregnancy, your body and your hormones is doing so much in that.

And then we're expected to emotionally process too. Yeah. So that's a lot. 

Rachel: one and having my last one. You know, I spent most of that time pregnant. So as you say, my hormones were all over the place. and in fact we discovered I had Hugh's Syndrome during the [00:24:00] pregnancy.

So I had to inject myself with heparin throughout the pregnancy as well. it was, it was all fun and games. But, you know, I was, I count myself as lucky. I look back at that time, it was hard, but I do appreciate now. How lucky I am. One of the things that I appreciated, particularly after I'd had Milo, was that, 

I lost the first one. we didn't know what we'd lost. we went on and had another child. And I actually had quite a large period of grief with the baby in my arms. Because I suddenly realized quite what I'd lost, if that makes sense. And I had friends who had lost second or third children. they had to grieve whilst looking after the child. they had to, hear their toddler cry all the milk would let down. Because it's the way that it works, but there's no baby to give it to.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah, there is no comparison.

Rachel: I know that. But it's also good to know that the other person doesn't think that they're worse.

Dannie-Lu: yeah.

Rachel: You know, you might think, oh, I'm glad this didn't happen to me. But the person that it did happen to could look at you and go, I'm glad that didn't happen to me.

Rebecca: I

Dannie-Lu: we find our way.

Rachel: make sense?

Rebecca: you're using it. you're using that comparison as a way, as a coping mechanism for yourself. And I think when I say coping mechanism, I don't mean that as a, but coping mechanisms can be awful and they can be useful. So you're using that comparison as a coping mechanism for yourself, as opposed to, trying to project that onto anybody else's experience or society. you're saying, I'm going to place myself here and see what I'm glad about.

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely, and it's going back to the, what positive can I find out of it? And I was very aware to [00:26:00] myself that my positive would not be somebody else's positive. 

Rebecca: We love hearing these stories, right?

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rebecca: and we want to hear more.

Dannie-Lu: So if you have something that you want to share about your story, your complicated journey, or anything that you feel belongs in this conversation, then get in touch.

Rebecca: You can go to complicatedpod. co. uk to find out more about the different stories we've already told and to let us know why you want to be part of this excellent cavalcade of stories.

Dannie-Lu: There's a contact form just to fill out to send in your submission and we can take it from there.

How do your, I'm interested as well, because obviously you have your two girls, how do they cope with, we'll put a negative lens on it. how do you incorporate all three of them together? Because they're clearly aware of their sister. how does that work and how do they manage it?

Rachel: I mean, in years gone by, it was a secret. 

It used to be a hidden thing, you know, you, didn't even see the baby. even just 25, 26 years ago, people were having stillbirths and then being put onto the postnatal ward with the babies. They just didn't have one, you know, and that's only 25 years ago. Yeah, we have come a huge, huge way since then. we talked about Amy all the time. Karen from a very young age knew they had a sister. My favorite photograph in the world is Karen's been about two, Milo there for about four. And I've got there stood just behind Amy's grave. I sent you the photograph if you like.

Rebecca: Danny sent it to me last night and I immediately started crying.

Rachel: Oh, you've seen it. 

Rebecca: It's the best.

Dannie-Lu: On, it's on your Facebook.[00:28:00]

Rachel: Absolutely. It's my, favorite photograph, because it's the only one I have of all three of them. We tried to recreate it later and I was so lucky on that day because the heights were just right. So Karen is just over the headstone mile's, just over Karen.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: we tried again, they were just all over the place. They were like, let's a stick with the, with the one photo.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. It's a beautiful picture. Yeah. Hmm.

Rachel: and we do joke that she's our easiest child, and probably the one we've shed the least tears over. but, they've always known that they were very, very wanted, that they, they in no way were replacing her, and that we have now chosen, yeah, if we, if we had to go back now, we would choose to lose her again, because it means we have these two.

Thank you. It's a really weird thing. I remember a book. There's a lady who lost her legs in the 7 7 bombings. And she says that she has now chosen Her life. Yeah, she loves her life as it is. She became a Paralympian, this sort of thing, and I found it really difficult to Understand how you would choose something horrific to happen to you, but actually you're not choosing the horrific thing You are saying I love the life.

I now have as a result of it so much that I would endure it again to be here now, you know, to have these children, to have this life that I have. so I have been very lucky that I've, able to choose that now. And it did help a little bit with the grief with accepting what had happened and processing through because I had these, these two rainbow babies as they're often called.

Rebecca: mentioned that, yeah, I think acceptance is something so amazing about being able to talk about things [00:30:00] as we know, and being able to process things verbally andpeople would explain these things in different ways, from their different heads, but there's something about acceptance.

There's something about choice. There's something about choosing things going forward. And of course, it's a complete hypothetical that you can't go back and change. Nobody is ever going to go back and change anything that's happened to them. So saying, if I went back, I wouldn't change it is essentially a psychological way of explaining things.

This is gonna sound so daft, but that's the first time I've ever thought of it like that. Because everyone talks about, would you go back and change? And you know you can't. But I've never actually gone, no, you actually can't. It was almost like, oh really

well again, I'm guessing you've talked a lot about this over the years and people have listened and you've paid people to talk and you've not paid people to talk to you and you've, all sorts of different things. And yet I feel like that's the thing about the, about sharing this stuff that it's yeah, we can start to see things in different ways and share things that are slightly different ways of looking at it. to me it feels, yeah, some people really enjoy talking hypothetically. I do not. I just, I don't like talking hypothetically.

Rachel: Okay.

Rebecca: and it's not listening to the conscious brain going, you can't go back. this is all perfectly practically normal and you need to give it some time 

Dannie-Lu: we can heal though, can't we? 

Rachel: too.

we can heal [00:32:00] really

is so agile and our brains are so clever and they can time hop and time is a little bit of I

Dannie-Lu: it is possible to go back and heal something that happened previous to you.

Rebecca: yeah.

Dannie-Lu: I've had versions of that and still have versions of that. And I'm so thankful that we can do that as humans. I think it makes us very clever.

Rachel: is what PTSD is, isn't it?

you're stuck in a moment.

Dannie-Lu: your brain perceives it like you were there.

Yeah.

Rachel: And why I'm so glad for this neuroplasticity, you can go back

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: those parts of you that were so badly hurt. 

if you think of a time very clearly, brain doesn't know that you're not there.

Rebecca: I'm really glad you mentioned 

That photo. it's a really visual way, I think, seeing. What happens when we do talk about these things and because it I looked at that photo and I imagined people that I know and have been close to over the years where you know, that photo could not have happened because the talking hadn't happened in order to get them in that one place, I thought, well, A lot has gone into that photo, as in, we've talked about stuff, we've shared, we've been vulnerable to people that we're to be looking after and making sure they're okay and keeping safe and yeah, it felt incredibly powerful to see that.

Rachel: The thing I love about it most is the smile on the two girls faces. 

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. 

Rachel: they sit and think about it, they find it sad. and as they've grown up, the worst one was when Karen once said to me, not be Karen now, I'll be Amy. And I was like, Oh, God, darling, no.

I said, I don't want Amy. I want Karen. It's as if she sort of had, she was learning to process what death was. she, in that picture, she had no idea what it [00:34:00] actually meant.

of mind and everything developed, and she understood what that actually meant. and she got quite upset for a while.

And we managed to talk about it, and able to reassure her that no, I did not want Amy anymore. I wanted Karen, and I wanted her as she was. She was perfect as she was. but yeah, it shows also where society is. that we can have these conversations. because as I said, just 25 years ago, the baby would have been taken away. You might've known where they'd gone, you

Dannie-Lu: something,

you wouldn't have had necessarily. 

No.

Rachel: use a cold room, and stay with the baby for a little while. we only saw her for a couple of hours. straight after the birth, our minister came in and blessed her and. Then they took her away, took some photos, and that was it.

things have changed a lot

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: and the very recent past.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: and improvements are being made. when I first lost Amy, they were losing 17 babies a day to, still death, still birth, sorry, and death in the first four weeks of life. they're now down to 16. It's still 16 too but, know, there are some improvements being made, which is, is fabulous.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. 

Rachel: I'm just very aware that there are so many stories in this podcast and I just, kind of want to say I know how lucky I am and I am, you know, so grateful able to share my story and to explain this side of being complicated. but I also appreciate that, you know, I am a very, very lucky person to be a parent. I don't want anyone to think that I'm being blase on that side of things. I wanna be very, aware,

Dannie-Lu: I would say there's no blase bone in your body, Rachel. I think you're really considered and also courageous because for anyone to share a [00:36:00] story, Any story actually around this in a candid way requires courage, parent, non parent, whatever those complexities are. And they're, as you've said, everyone has complexities.

They're just different. It takes courage in a society that can, oversimplify and also has commodified birth and pregnancy. it's a huge business. 

Rachel: mm

Dannie-Lu: it's a huge business and it has been since probably the eighties and the fertility business is huge.

Motherhood and pregnancy is a huge business. and I think that is in part responsible. This is just my perspective on honest, not necessarily having so many honest conversations because it's supposed to look like this. And I think that's very convenient for consumerism for it to look like this. And actually it's really nice to bring back what is it really, and for you to come forward and talk about it in the way that you are and everyone who talks on our podcast or talks in society, that's such an important thing.

so Thank you for sharing what you're sharing.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you. 

Rachel: I feel like I want to ask what people can, you've probably touched on some of this as we've been chatting, but what is still challenging? What's brilliant, and you've articulated a lot of what's brilliant, but there might be other stuff, and can people get wrong about your situation?

It's a hard one, A lot of people got things very right.

Dannie-Lu: know, like, the first thing my husband said to me was, It's not your fault and we'll try again. Exactly the right thing to say. He was such a star. my mum sent me birthday cards for the first few years.

Rachel: until she felt that we were at a point where that wasn't necessary. And, I have been very lucky. I've got amazing friends that talk about it. I think that's the thing that do get wrong, is not talking. It's this assumption you should be over it by now or [00:38:00] got another child now. So what's the problem?

you've got six living children, you love them all differently and, you know, and the same. and it's the same when you've lost them as well. I'm so pleased that society is getting so much better, allowing both parents. the time to grieve, and the understanding that people need. And it's knowing that grief is a, is literally a rollercoaster. I mean, I think the 10 year anniversary was very hard for me. lost a lot that week. And then other years I go, Oh my gosh, is it, is it days already?

but I think the more we understand about it and talk about it, with each other, the grief goes up and down. One day you might be happy as Larry and, that's great. another day might just need to have a talk about it. Another lady I know who lost her child. To have an Amy day is okay. It doesn't matter how far after it happens. you can have a day when she's very present and to not belittle that with somebody. if the grief is there today, the grief is there. it's the same grief, it doesn't hurt any less now. I'm just better at hiding it and carrying it. So, you know, just, just want society to talk about So things aren't such a shock. when, when I discovered she died, I said to my mum, I didn't know this could still happen. she said to me, you've been worrying for the last 48 hours about how little she's moving. What did you think had happened? And I said, I don't know, but I didn't think it was this. I had been told that low movement is not a good [00:40:00] thing. had never logically put that through to the child could be dead. 

Rebecca: it was just that you had to do something.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah,

Rachel: where we're not directly talking to a pregnant woman and scaring the bejesus out of her, but just so that when she goes into it, she does know what could possibly happen and she's sort of aware

Dannie-Lu: yeah

Rachel: a scary way,

Dannie-Lu: It's treating women as grown up, and men too of course, but treating people as grown up so that they can handle their own situation rather than wrapping people in cotton wool I suppose, around pregnancy. No.

Rachel: the infertility stories we'll be talking about. Nobody goes into it thinking that that's going to be there. but knowing that it could be, is, is really important.

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: much less of a shock

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: if we've had these conversations.

Rebecca: You, at the beginning you mentioned soundbites and we're talking about talking more and I wonder whether your, the magic wand that you might wave might be around ending soundbites. I'm not sure if that's, too much of a soundbite actually, just realized.

Rachel: Quite honestly, I love a meme. I love a soundbite. I love a, put your positive pants on, know, but I want, the world to know that when you say a soundbite. It's only one tiny sliver of the conversation and it might be the thing that you need to hear right that moment but it's not something to be offended about because right now you can't do that or that's not you and It's not everything 

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. 

Rachel: the magic wand. I would wave is to get everybody being that little bit more compassionate [00:42:00] and remembering that there is so much gray in this world. It's not black and white.

We, we need to have conversations, set policies, run the world, understanding that there are so many nuances and we have to be to those nuances.

Rebecca: Great,

Rachel: That's what I would do.

Rebecca: thank you. Thank you so much.

Dannie-Lu: Thanks, Rachel.

Rebecca: yeah, proper privilege. think I said that the last time we spoke to somebody, I'm going to find

Dannie-Lu: It's always a privilege when people share their stories, isn't it? Because it's so personal and it's such an honour and it's so important. I mean, some of this conversation has been around the importance of it and it's always cathartic for everybody, I think, to share stuff and to be heard and to recognise how much we've got in common more than we've got differences.

Rachel: And that is so true. Humans around this world, we've got way more in common

Dannie-Lu: Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: we do is look at the differences, 

Dannie-Lu: Yeah.

Rachel: We just end up at each other's throats, and there's only a few people who ever win from that.

Whereas if we can just come together as humans, and we hear each other's stories, we understand more about each other. The world would be such a better place.

Dannie-Lu: I totally agree.

Rachel: So thank you.

Rebecca: I totally agree.

Rachel: you for doing this.

Rebecca: Well,

Rachel: it.

Rebecca: we'll keep on trucking, we'll see where we get. And thank you for donating as well. That's

Dannie-Lu: Thank you so much, 

Rebecca: I mean, you've given us your time. but it's great to, we definitely have a website and we definitely have to pay for some things and we definitely are right at the beginning of it.

So it's just really, it will get used immediately.

Rachel: And as a soundbite, everyone else, go and donate. This is such an important thing that you are doing. You are getting this conversation happening. and the [00:44:00] repercussions, the ripples from this will be huge. I can see it already. Well done, both of you.

Rebecca: I

Dannie-Lu: Thank you.

Rebecca: I just thought I'll leave it on.

Rachel: go to the desert.

Dannie-Lu: Leave it on. 

Rebecca: Yeah, it really does.

Rachel: true.

Rebecca: If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by subscribing and sharing and you can donate by visiting ko fi. com forward slash complicated pod. We are really proud of this podcast. We really believe in it and we would so appreciate your support. Yeah. You can find out more about what we're doing and all the different episodes that we're going to feature. go to our website, complicatedpod. co. uk and you can become a first friend of the podcast for just four pounds a month, or just buy us a coffee and wish us well, we would appreciate it.

Thank you.